Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

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Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:55 am

Big blue hasn't really been seen since set 2. It made a tiny resurgence with a failed attempt by gonfreeces31 to make it popular again (getting in the top 5 rp if I recall correctly) in set 8, but since then, including with the introduction of galderia, big and mid blue has not been seen as an op file. But this is completely wrong. As gon has shown, big blue was able to consistently pump out wins against the mid gowen meta of the time and many other rush files.

Like with other falkow, there is an inherent weakness to big files, which is in it of itself a really bad design element, but this is not an excuse for this file or any other file to be extremely polarized against rush or mid files. Testing matches have shown that with two competent players, big blue beats meta mid refess with etoile to guard against field wipes and catira to remove, making big blue the only big to be able to boast being able to do that. In case anyone was wondering how that was possible, field wipes were done until last copy etoile died. The fact that against a competent player, no big currently should have the chance to even come close to winning against the longevity of mid refess (not by control but by pushing out field wipes) speaks volumes about the whole file as a whole.

Let's look at what exactly timestop and rasam does. Timestop is a grim that engages almost every unit but rasam for two turns, the exceptions being mostly falkow (of course). This is incredibly good. Not only do you have guaranteed setup against everything but open skills, which are expensive (the only cheap ones to counter rasam are storm sorc and tidal bounds open, both again in falkow), it also stalls two turn granting you a net 1 sp at the end, and a net 4 sp for the opponent which he could only spend on more units which will get hit by the field wipe or grims, of which there are a limited amount. The greatest sp sink rush files have in the form of action skills are denied because timestop engages them. Now imagine if other field wipers such as millia had a 3 sp grim that engaged everyone but her for 2 turns, stopping start skills and fast agi fast attack units. I bet they would see a lot more use. Rasam does 40 aoe damage to all engaged units for 1 sp. With timestop, which you want to use to both stall for more sp and prevent other units from acting, for 1 sp, rasam can hit 40 aoe damage to all units, or for 2 sp and 2 turns of action, hit 80 aoe damage cumulative. Then after 3 timestops are used, rasam's secondary skill can lock your crippled file if there are any units or lp left. The most obvious comparison that can be made is to prenerf ruuca. 1 ruuca and 1 timestop solo'd any rush file at the time. I have a distinct memory of having a field full of level 7 undeads with enormous attack and agi buffs, all copies in file, against an empty field, lost to ruuca + timestop endgame (fire dragon, fire dragon, ice dragon, ice dragon, fire dragon) because I did not pack an assassin in any of my 3 remaining soul skills. Well, rasam timestop is not much different from that. The amount of times that you can field wipe is limited, but I claim that 3 (3 fire dragons and 3 copies) is enough to give you a win vs any rush file. Like fire dragon, timestop+rasam's skill does not even cost enough sp to prevent consecutive uses (or limited uses, as anyone who has used afel who is less stable and not as powerful due to agi manipulation, faster units, start skills, and salamanders will tell you). The only difference between the two strategies is that now you have to pack 3 timestops instead of 1. 2 fileslots is not much of a nerf there testing team.

Let's look at what galderia+lightning wyvern actually does. Out of the two, galderia is definitely the offender (it is not clear in rasam timestop which one is the overpowered one). Galderia has a 1 sp open which is an area of effect corruption. NO OTHER UNIT in the history of alteil has been able to do that. The only other cards that come close, both of them overpowered, are game over and burning sun. But looking at their costs, it is very clear which one wins. Galderia mass corruption open (corruption is single target and a 3 sp grim, come on testing team!) gives the falkow player a win where the falkow player should not have a win. If I am playing big red or big lawtia and I let true god church snowball their sp out of control to 150+ hp, should I get a win? Hell no. They, through building up a field over multiple turns using mutiple different units that complement each other, achieved their win condition. But a single galderia open and lightning wyvern skill kills the whole field for 2 sp. Anyone think that's fair? Although this strategy requires more banked sp and does not prevent start skills from killing lightning wyvern, it guarantees field wipe if lightning's skill goes off. Galderia also has a secondary skill that for 1 sp gives you both field advantage (which is more important than sp advantage), clearing field and giving you 2 card advantage. That's huge! No other unit or grim in the game trades 1 sp for 2 cards. This skill of course goes with the strategy of decking your opponent's card file.

The existence of control cards in mid/big blue further complicates things. Not fielding against big blue is a huge mistake, and fielding is also a huge mistake. If you don't field and just iczer, the opponent can just drop vonderam and instant field lock you. In order to come out even against a giant squid trading unit for unit, you need around 3 level 3s on the field. In order to have an advantage, you need 4 level 3s. This is of course, even if you are sacrificing 4 level 3s to later rasam timestop spam or such in order to have an advantage against giant squid, the opponent is still essentially stalling (squid averaging 2 turn survival against 4 level 3s), leaving you with a glut of sp that you can either use to pump out that 5th unit so that there is one more unit to be killed with rasam or just leave it to sit there wasted. Squid/vonderam prevents you from dumping your sp on iczer attacks, forces you to field for later wipes, and stalls the game.

If anyone is wondering why exactly there has been a lot of augments and big red (and also big refess) in folrart lately, perhaps it is to counter falkow. Perhaps falkow is still the big A strategy that is not only dominant, but also restrictive upon the all the timmy cards from being played, driving timmy players into spike players. Perhaps augments and 3x overdose is the B strategy which isn't as strong but counters strategy A, that people hate enough to all move to strategy B. Of course there exists a strategy C (mid refess) that is good against strategy B (augments) but dies to strategy A (falkow). I'm using augments and mid refess because anyone who received free set 11 has those cards. The fact that people would rather play strategy B (not strategy C which should be better in a strategy B dominant folrart arena) says something about the hatred felt to strategy A. In a successful game, a dominant strategy A can be achieved without the frustrations felt at not being able to do anything against it. Anyone who has played a non-aggressive character-based fun file has faced volfied and been locked out the entire match, unable to do anything. Stop playing characters I guess. Elite fencer? Start playing agi 3 I guess. Ex Mermaid? Start playing units with cheap good skills only I guess. Timestop+Rasam and Galderia+Lightning? I guess just quit this game altogether.

If we really want to drive this game forward, we need to push out more rares like prenerf 5* dilate which although was powerful, could be outrushed and killed with some strategic modification, modification which by the way is good and necessary for the development of the players. Don't push out things like ruuca which in essence guarantees a win against a certain type of file just by being in the file; player only needs to learn to drop the units in order and then spam the same actions over and over again for an easy win condition and lockdown condition.

Now before gon posts here, I will enforce some sort of rule to be civil here. If you make a post, every paragraph needs to begin with:
"I agree with this point" or
"I disagree with this point"



tl;dr
Mid and Big Blue's ability to deck a rush file a lot better than file destruction make them op. There are no strategic modifications you can make to rush files to stand a chance against them. The two biggest offenders are rasam+timestop and galderia.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyglare » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:00 am

I disagree, the top meta and RP is currently Zu+Ellie+whatever right?
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 am

Icyglare wrote:I disagree, the top meta and RP is currently Zu+Ellie+whatever right?

What does that have to do with anything? Top RP can be changed anyday with some casual grinding. CotC was top RP right after the introduction of set 11. Not kidding. I put him there with 1600s rp.
I disagree because top RP is an indicator of the current grinding level of the iczer, not an indicator of the power level of the file or how frustrating it is to play against. Plus, your argument of this card is not top RP so should not be errata'd doesn't make sense. Perhaps ellie should be errata'd too. Perhaps ex mermaid which is 2nd and 3rd needs erratas too. But we are not talking about that here.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyglare » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:07 am

Icyman2 wrote:What does that have to do with anything? Top RP can be changed anyday with some casual grinding. CotC was top RP right after the introduction of set 11. Not kidding. I put him there with 1600s rp.
I disagree because top RP is an indicator of the current grinding level of the iczer, not an indicator of the power level of the file or how frustrating it is to play against. Plus, your argument of this card is not top RP so should not be errata'd doesn't make sense. Perhaps ellie should be errata'd too. Perhaps ex mermaid which is 2nd and 3rd needs erratas too. But we are not talking about that here.



You're right, it could change any day but it hasn't for more than a week now. Sure there can be some polarized matchups, but until the wins/whoring out comes in, I don't think it's that bad since these combos existed for some time now.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:18 am

It hasn't changed for more than a week now because people have lost interest in the game and aren't playing anymore. Perhaps due to crap like the above.
My argument was that the combos I listed wins vs any rush or mids file. That's a significant part of the game. I think the fact that these combos have been unrealized so far is due to probably gon's pestering of how weak galderia is or maybe how ruuca completely outshadowed rasam for a good part of the game.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby skillll7 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:16 am

Mid/Big Falk is extremely polarized though. It's like running triple Afeemina against a Lv 3 file... or running Durendal SS against a Lv 2 rush.
I've played many different Mid/Big Falk variations, and it's incredibly hard to balance Rushes with Mids/Bigs. You really do need the 3 to 1 ratios because cards like Waterspout are only useful against mids/bigs and cards like Vonderam and Squid are only useful against rushes. It's really, really hard. The ratios make it easy to polarize against rushes though because that's what they have the most hate of.

Galdirea is basically the only card in the file right now that can handle any file. Don't nerf him. He's too beautiful for nerfs. That, and he's the also the only card in the file that can make it win against bigs besides running triple spout with double Legrye special.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Icyman2 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 am

skillll7 wrote:Mid/Big Falk is extremely polarized though. It's like running triple Afeemina against a Lv 3 file... or running Durendal SS against a Lv 2 rush.
I've played many different Mid/Big Falk variations, and it's incredibly hard to balance Rushes with Mids/Bigs. You really do need the 3 to 1 ratios because cards like Waterspout are only useful against mids/bigs and cards like Vonderam and Squid are only useful against rushes. It's really, really hard. The ratios make it easy to polarize against rushes though because that's what they have the most hate of.

Galdirea is basically the only card in the file right now that can handle any file. Don't nerf him. He's too beautiful for nerfs. That, and he's the also the only card in the file that can make it win against bigs besides running triple spout with double Legrye special.

Mids can be grouped with rushes to things that die with field wipe specials. Yeah, the fact that galderia gives you a chance against bigs tells you that she's quite op.
I mean you've played it and you probably know and seen how much just dropping certain combos give you so much advantage out the **** when you're so behind.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby gadu » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:43 am

I really enjoyed the opening post. I haven't seen Icyman for a while and am glad he's hanging around.

I think another card that really saves Big Blue's behind is Bog Wyvern. If you manage to clear all the wyverns and Rasam, you better have something left to deal with the L6 Sorcerer Monk.

I got my highest win streak on an old alt playing essentially Rasam, Bog Wyvern, and Sorcer Monk. There were not many things back then that could handle all the field wiping.

Then there's the Levi lock. It also can create auto win matches, especially against Refess.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby skillll7 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:54 am

I only wish to save Galdirea!

Oh, and Mid/Big Falk is timeless... The only file other than EN that has survived since Set 2. Partly due to prebuilts.
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Re: Errata Timestop+Rasam/Galderia+Lightning Wyvern

Postby Romdeau » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 am

Rest assured, Big Blue is nowhere near the nerf hammer of kittens and justice.
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