Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby urizen'sforum » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:41 pm

Quigleaf wrote:
tropireno wrote:I was honestly hoping for a cheaper price for these. 45 bucks for the full set of EX cards is still kinda ridiculous.


Allow me to offer some perspective here (excuse me for this wall of text, I promise it's worth it):

You're receiving 24 cards (3x of each card) plus commons. At $45?, each card costs you $2.

Let's say you're a regular Iczer with a 10-hour per week schedule. You'll be experimenting with these cards for about 2 weeks while you do adjustments and try new combos and stuff. That's 20 hours of entertainment for $45, so, per hour, you're paying $2.25. That's less than the hourly minimum wage of any state by the way.

Nothing exists in a vacuum. So, let's keep this "perspective enhancement" going:

Alteil is a CCG (with no trade aspect so far). There are thousands of other CCG's and TCG's. The more popular of them are M:tG and YGO. (Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh!, respectively).

Current popular, competitive decks for M:tG in any format (since they have multiple tournament formats to choose from) are in the $300-$500 pricetag, sometimes going even to the thousands, specially in older formats like Legacy and Vintage. Right now, the most expensive card of the most popular format (Standard) is worth $40: Liliana of the Veil. Thanks God not all decks use her, but in decks that do, she is usually found as a 3x (three copies, that is).
There are several other cards with close pricetags which are used as 3x and 4x in several deck types: Boros Reckoner ($25), Geist of Saint Traft ($30), Thundermaw Hellkite ($35).

If you leave Standard, and go for older formats, prices can get quickly out of hand: there's a card called Tarmogoyf that is worth $130, even after they announced they are going to reprint it this summer. And that's a card that was in print less 6 years ago (May 2007). There's a batch of pre-2000 cards that are valued in the hundreds, and commonly see play as 4x in ALL deck archetypes legal on the format: the dual lands.

Of course there's more to M:tG to simply play and have fun, but that's another discussion entirely.

YGO? That game used to have legal cards worth easily $200 like Dark Armed Dragon, Judgment Dragon and similar cards. Of course, YGO usually reprints popular, powerful stuff in common and rare versions that are worthless when compared to their Ultra Rare versions. You will still find competitive staples of the game going for $30 or $40 easily, like Number 11: Big Eye or 1st edition Zenmaines.

In both cases, you're looking at potential $400+ investments for full decks. Since both games use 40 or 60 cards (instead of Alteil's 25), let's settle for half that value: $200.

Getting a competitive deck here in Alteil is cheaper, without a doubt. With about $50 you can get yourself enough cards to build a few decks that can be competitive, like Undead or Monsters or WK Rush.

At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of use you get from your cards. If you're an occasional Iczer that plays 2-3 matches per day you should be looking at other kinds of products, like pre-builts: those let you play right out of the "box" without adjustments and issues of any kind.

This EX release is certainly not for the casual crowd.

(That said, I do believe the benefits of purchasing a Full Box should outweight the current 100G of savings).


As someone who plays legacy magic ya alteil feel like chump change.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby WhiteDragon2 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:16 am

You do know alteil is not a TCG right? Comparing it to other online games it is in fact rather expensive (45 bucks for only a really small part of the game).
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Scientiafide » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:20 pm

Quigleaf wrote:
tropireno wrote:I was honestly hoping for a cheaper price for these. 45 bucks for the full set of EX cards is still kinda ridiculous.


Allow me to offer some perspective here (excuse me for this wall of text, I promise it's worth it):

You're receiving 24 cards (3x of each card) plus commons. At $45?, each card costs you $2.

Let's say you're a regular Iczer with a 10-hour per week schedule. You'll be experimenting with these cards for about 2 weeks while you do adjustments and try new combos and stuff. That's 20 hours of entertainment for $45, so, per hour, you're paying $2.25. That's less than the hourly minimum wage of any state by the way.

Nothing exists in a vacuum. So, let's keep this "perspective enhancement" going:

Alteil is a CCG (with no trade aspect so far). There are thousands of other CCG's and TCG's. The more popular of them are M:tG and YGO. (Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh!, respectively).

Current popular, competitive decks for M:tG in any format (since they have multiple tournament formats to choose from) are in the $300-$500 pricetag, sometimes going even to the thousands, specially in older formats like Legacy and Vintage. Right now, the most expensive card of the most popular format (Standard) is worth $40: Liliana of the Veil. Thanks God not all decks use her, but in decks that do, she is usually found as a 3x (three copies, that is).
There are several other cards with close pricetags which are used as 3x and 4x in several deck types: Boros Reckoner ($25), Geist of Saint Traft ($30), Thundermaw Hellkite ($35).

If you leave Standard, and go for older formats, prices can get quickly out of hand: there's a card called Tarmogoyf that is worth $130, even after they announced they are going to reprint it this summer. And that's a card that was in print less 6 years ago (May 2007). There's a batch of pre-2000 cards that are valued in the hundreds, and commonly see play as 4x in ALL deck archetypes legal on the format: the dual lands.

Of course there's more to M:tG to simply play and have fun, but that's another discussion entirely.

YGO? That game used to have legal cards worth easily $200 like Dark Armed Dragon, Judgment Dragon and similar cards. Of course, YGO usually reprints popular, powerful stuff in common and rare versions that are worthless when compared to their Ultra Rare versions. You will still find competitive staples of the game going for $30 or $40 easily, like Number 11: Big Eye or 1st edition Zenmaines.

In both cases, you're looking at potential $400+ investments for full decks. Since both games use 40 or 60 cards (instead of Alteil's 25), let's settle for half that value: $200.

Getting a competitive deck here in Alteil is cheaper, without a doubt. With about $50 you can get yourself enough cards to build a few decks that can be competitive, like Undead or Monsters or WK Rush.

At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of use you get from your cards. If you're an occasional Iczer that plays 2-3 matches per day you should be looking at other kinds of products, like pre-builts: those let you play right out of the "box" without adjustments and issues of any kind.

This EX release is certainly not for the casual crowd.

(That said, I do believe the benefits of purchasing a Full Box should outweight the current 100G of savings).


I actually used a similar argument way back when I first started alteil. Over time I've come to realize the prices are actually quite exorbitant for a lot of reasons, and that there are a lot of problems with using the argument you just used, namely:

1) Alteil is not MtG. MtG is probably THE premier TCG. Alteil, on the other hand, is a small, relatively unknown card game that barely manages to get 50 players online at any given moment. Compared to a lot of other card games in the market, Alteil IS at the more expensive end. Hell, even compared to online games that have a large amount of expensive downloadable content (a fact that a lot of gamers complain about btw, both casual and hardcore alike), Alteil is expensive.

2) The prices you're listing are prices in the secondary market. Alteil does not have a secondary market. The only way to acquire cards for a meta file in alteil is to play your luck and to acquire cards randomly; I suppose you can use point cards, but the rate of acquiring point cards would probably be around 5-10 per week, so it'll take quite some time to do. That's of course assuming UD actually works, which it hasn't for months now (and which often requires a large collection anyway to participate in since you can't use FM cards). Getting an entire file type in such a manner in this game is difficult. What further compounds the issue is the fact that in alteil you often need 3 copies of a card to play it succesfully.

Now if you were to compare the prices WotC offers for it's actual products, you'd see they beat Alteil's by a longshot.

3) Due to having a secondary market, you can often resell cards in the other games you listed and get your money back (or at least a good portion of it). No such thing exists in alteil. Even MtGO has a secondary market, which lowers the cost for players quite extensively (I've been able to build several good decks in MTGO for less than $5).

Look, I like this game a lot too. I think at this point, since you also like the game a lot, you're trying to rationalize the cost. A lot of players have been where you are at now; but when you stop and think about it, the prices really are quite exorbitant.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:43 pm

WhiteDragon2 wrote:You do know alteil is not a TCG right? Comparing it to other online games it is in fact rather expensive (45 bucks for only a really small part of the game).


Eh…

Quigleaf wrote:Alteil is a CCG (with no trade aspect so far). There are thousands of other CCG's and TCG's. The more popular of them are M:tG and YGO. (Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh!, respectively).


Kinda… yeah?
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Anima13 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:08 pm

I don't know... being a free player Its difficult to judge the prices.
But knowing the options I have to get gran + imagining an additional financial power behind, I don't find it that expensive.
Of course If you just spend money to excessively get all cards, do not grind and don't do MM then its a different story. But seriously why would you give out money on a game you barely play at all?? I dont understand that.

Surely comparing the prices with other trading card games Is difficult. But If i take a look on what is around in online dimension..... Its hard to make the comparison too. Cause simply most online card games don't have this depth, this complexity, such a story line, this beautiful art all in one game..... What on earth should I compare alteil to???
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Quigleaf » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:43 pm

Scientiafide wrote:
Quigleaf wrote:Alteil is a CCG (with no trade aspect so far). There are thousands of other CCG's and TCG's. The more popular of them are M:tG and YGO. (Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh!, respectively).

In both cases, you're looking at potential $400+ investments for full decks. Since both games use 40 or 60 cards (instead of Alteil's 25), let's settle for half that value: $200.

Getting a competitive deck here in Alteil is cheaper, without a doubt. With about $50 you can get yourself enough cards to build a few decks that can be competitive, like Undead or Monsters or WK Rush.

At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of use you get from your cards. If you're an occasional Iczer that plays 2-3 matches per day you should be looking at other kinds of products, like pre-builts: those let you play right out of the "box" without adjustments and issues of any kind.

This EX release is certainly not for the casual crowd.

(That said, I do believe the benefits of purchasing a Full Box should outweight the current 100G of savings).


I actually used a similar argument way back when I first started alteil. Over time I've come to realize the prices are actually quite exorbitant for a lot of reasons, and that there are a lot of problems with using the argument you just used, namely:

1) Alteil is not MtG. MtG is probably THE premier TCG. Alteil, on the other hand, is a small, relatively unknown card game that barely manages to get 50 players online at any given moment. Compared to a lot of other card games in the market, Alteil IS at the more expensive end. Hell, even compared to online games that have a large amount of expensive downloadable content (a fact that a lot of gamers complain about btw, both casual and hardcore alike), Alteil is expensive.

2) The prices you're listing are prices in the secondary market. Alteil does not have a secondary market. The only way to acquire cards for a meta file in alteil is to play your luck and to acquire cards randomly.

Now if you were to compare the prices WotC offers for it's actual products, you'd see they beat Alteil's by a longshot.

3) Due to having a secondary market, you can often resell cards in the other games you listed and get your money back (or at least a good portion of it). No such thing exists in alteil. Even MtGO has a secondary market, which lowers the cost for players quite extensively (I've been able to build several good decks in MTGO for less than $5).

Look, I like this game a lot too. I think at this point, since you also like the game a lot, you're trying to rationalize the cost. A lot of players have been where you are at now; but when you stop and think about it, the prices really are quite exorbitant.


1. That's right. That's why I wrote "it all depends on what kind of use you get from your cards". As far as online games go, it's usual to see both subscriptions in the $10 range, monthly (WoW). LoL? Everything for free, skin/champs cost about $7. MTGO? Boosters at $3.5, tickets at $1. The cost is still relative to all of this.

2. WotC recently released the Premium Deck Sorin vs. Tibalt. Only two cards command a truly premium price there: Sorin at $18 and Hellrider at $12. They come with two full decks. Price? $20. If you wanted a full playset of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, you're looking at a $80 investment. Each Sorin ends up costing you $10, and you're full of cards that you won't be able to sell ever, unless as bulk.

3. True. You won't get your money back unless you know what you are doing tho. Most cards will go for 65% of its SCG price, but not all cards. Shocklands? Still $10 or more. This depends a lot on where do you live and how active the MtG scene is there. NY and large East Coast areas have no issues, but good luck trying to get a nice price on cards on a few areas of the Bible Belt on the States. Outside the States, the prices can go absolutely nuts: I've seen cards in Australia, Italia and Mexico go well over its SCG price by 50% or more.

Everyone around thinks I am a new guy, and I'll leave it at that. But no, I've been here for years, and just recently became active in the community. I'm not rationalizing the cost, just offering how different games' costs should always be taken in consideration when judging Alteil's price.

In the end, my opinion is simple:
Is Alteil expensive? Depends on how much time you are around.
Are prices "too high"? To me, this is a no, because I play a lot (when the server lets me in).
Should we get more "value" for a $40 bundle? This is a sound and loud YES.
And chances are the same can be said of most bundles and packages in Alteil.

Hopefully, the Auction House will cover a lot of the issues that this game has. The recycle system is not enough for this.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby GonFreeces31 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:25 pm

Honestly for people who have salaries Alteil is very affordable. $45 is not really a lot of money for most people with full time jobs. It's just for most kids in college or high school this game is completely unaffordable.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby gabotheplaya » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:35 am

GonFreeces31 wrote:Honestly for people who have salaries Alteil is very affordable. $45 is not really a lot of money for most people with full time jobs. It's just for most kids in college or high school this game is completely unaffordable.


I'm a "practically" free player, but sunk in $20 total of my own money (i did receive donations before to pump that).

The cost is high, but i can imagine it being chump change to first world countries. $20 is literally almost my day's wage for me here in the Philippines, and i have a pretty sweet position in a good company to boot.

The thing that disappears in a discussion like this is Mirage Master, i farmed that like a b!tch for so long until alteil broke on my home desktop... AND ITS ENOUGH! i got almost anything important that came out if i get 15gran daily and managed my gran wisely... that's like free money right there.

I wonder how all assumptions will get uprooted by the auction house?
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Khiruki » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:57 am

Every time I see the acronym LMA, I mentally add another L and A.

Hence forth, EX: Light Magic Archer shall now be referred to as EX Llama. Or Llama for short.
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Re: Financial Rundown: EX Chromatic Forces

Postby Jazzock » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:54 am

Typos ftw
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